Wikileaks, Take your pick…

July 25, 2010

Wikileaks, Take your pick…

Posted by mcnorman under Uncategorized
[42] Comments

Afghan War Diaries

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42 Responses to “Wikileaks, Take your pick…”

NomNomNom Says:

July 26, 2010 at 5:08 am
yes at least someone is giving us actual information; one wonders at the cryptome hostility.
still, I hope he releases the other massacre video: it will do a lot more than these documents to stop the war in Afghanistan
seeing is at least sometimes believing for these morons who cannot admit that all our wars are illegla wars for profit and have absolutely nothing to do with uS security.
btw we committed another civilian massacre of about 45 people.
http://www.abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=196948
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 6:42 am
  There are always two sides to a story Nom. I have never liked war. I don’t like what Julian did either. I think that it is wrong. Let’s be honest here, partial blame falls on the public. We have tacitly allowed these people to do what they want because we prefer to go on about our business. Leave the dirty work in someone else’s hands is far easier for anyone than putting down their toys and thinking about long term consequences. As for Julian, I believe that he is deceptive as well.
  
  Shame on WikiLeaks: Framing Lawful Engagement as Anti-American Propaganda. “The video plainly shows U.S. forces identifying and killing armed Mahdi Army soldiers, following rules of engagement.”
  
  UPDATE: Related item here. “If anything the video demonstrates the extremes to which the pilots went to follow the rules of engagement. (Go to 7:40 and watch until about 8:50.)”
  
  ANOTHER UPDATE: More from Blackfive.
  
  And this from a blogger at Firedoglake:
  
  I want to first start by saying that Wikileaks has really misled the public on the details of this video. They made it sound like it was an unprovoked massacre of unarmed civilians, and so it angers me when I wasted my time watching this video to see nothing like that.
  
  Your viewpoint is your opinion, and I can respect that. I think that this release is wrong, and that’s my opinion.
  1. NomNomNom Says:
    
    July 26, 2010 at 7:04 am
    I watched the entire video
    and imo it was unprovoked; as many have reached my conclusion as well as that of the FDL blogger.
    ~~Not sure why all of a sudden the viewpoint of a bunch of BHO drones has become an exemplary source either, just sayin.~~
    
    “Let’s be honest here, partial blame falls on the public.”
    Yes I believe I said that some time ago, that I didn’t like the “government” putting blood on my hands by using my tax dollars to fund these wars for profit. As I recall, no one agreed with me.
    1. mcnorman Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 7:10 am
      We can’t go back Nom. As I said timing is everything. Perhaps Manning took some bait? I don’t know, the whole thing stinks to me. There is so much that I have to question when it comes to timing and the bait.
    2. mcnorman Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 10:03 am
      If you want to know why I added Firedoglake, it is because both left and right are suspect of the video. I don’t need anyone’s imput to view anything. I can tell you that what you see and what might be maybe two different things. Simple.
    3. NomNomNom Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 10:23 am
      I’ll let Manning tell me why he leaked the video, though I’m grateful whatever his reason.
      That is, I would let him tell me but he was flown out of the country to Kuwait, where he has been imprisoned these several months without benefit of a lawyer though Assange has offered to provide him with counsel.
      
      Manning was caught because he blabbed to Adrian Lamo. the now-government hacker, not by intention though by stupidity. He appears to have wished the video aired to the public; but of course since he can’t talk since he hasn’t been brought to trial for some unknown reason, no one can say.
    4. NomNomNom Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 11:40 am
      which isn’t to say that I don’t have some serious reservations about Assange, mostly because he is still a free man, and I do think Manning is almost certainly someone else’s tool.
      my greater worry is that Manning is some governmental type’s tool, and the leak planned in order to further the war in some fashion, rather than limit it.
      I would have to allow that I think this is the most likely scenario, in fact.
      For that matter, even if all the documents are proven authentic, that is not the same thing as proven truthful or accurate; our dear leaders lie to us all the time.
      that’s why I want there to be whistleblowers.
      I really do hope wikileaks releases the Garani massacre vid; in this case a picture will certainly be worth a million words if it is half as alarming as hearsay has it.
    5. mcnorman Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 12:23 pm
      I don’t believe that the New York Times would have published this without the knowledge or even the approval of the Obama Administration, so this may signal the government/military is finally willing to do something about Pakistan. Timing is everything. My point is that the whistleblowers may not know what they are being set up to do.
    6. NomNomNom Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 2:33 pm
      “My point is that the whistleblowers may not know what they are being set up to do.”
      
      likely Manning, but not all whistleblowers are dupes: Katherine Gun (Iraq), Karen Kwiatkowski (Iraq), Joe Darby (Abu Ghraib), Daniel Ellsberg (Vietnam papers), Mark Felt (Nixon), Ingvar Bratt (Bofors), Frederick Whitehurst (FBI lab used in WTC 1 & Oklahoma City), Karen Silkwood (nuke plant), Mark Klein (ATT/NSA spying), Harry Markopolos (Madoff), & husband of Valerie Plame Joe Wilson whose What I Didn’t Find in Africa was the reason deputy SOS Armitage outed her by leaking her info to “journalist” Novak are all good examples.
ProudMilitaryMom Says:

July 26, 2010 at 5:22 am
I am going to stay out of this argument- as the mom of an active duty military guy and his active duty wife- I hope the leaker goes to prison for the rest of his damn life. My son has to defend this guy?
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 6:44 am
  I understand completely PMM. This is very hard to go through. I would have a difficult time defending this clown myself. I think that information can be spiked in many ways. I also know that time the release of that information is critical to swaying public opinion.
  1. ProudMilitaryMom Says:
    
    July 26, 2010 at 8:33 am
    Thanks mcn!
    And OT- I saw in the news today that some of the AZ illegals might be heading to PA. Not a good move on their part- we don’t advertise it- but ICE gets a lot of business this side of the state- got a post up on it.
    1. mcnorman Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 10:03 am
      I hope ICE gets to working fast.
imustprotest Says:

July 26, 2010 at 8:09 am
I don’t care what anyone’s politics are OR frickin’ OPINIONS….the leak was just plain WRONG
======
Wikileaks made no effort to contact the US government about these documents, which may contain information that endanger the lives of Americans, our partners, and local populations who co-operate with us.”
=====
The person/people involved with this leak should be tried for TREASON.

Sorry mcnorman, but this just really…….me off!
1. ProudMilitaryMom Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 8:31 am
  Thanks imust! Sometimes I need somebody else to validate my opinion- when it comes to the health, safety and welfare of my family in the military I am not the most objective soul.
  And if this is classified material I hope he gets the max- or life in Leavenworth. Nah- life is too good for assholes like this.
  1. imustprotest Says:
    
    July 26, 2010 at 8:59 am
    PMM, this reminds me of the Valerie Plame outing. All done in the name of partisan politics. It wasn’t just Valerie who was put in danger (although that is enough in an of itself), but all of her contacts and others who had worked with her as well. People who want to make or score political “points” should find another way that doesn’t involve endangering Americans who are valiantly serving our country.
Uncle Baruch Says:

July 26, 2010 at 9:11 am
I wouldn’t put it past the WH to have engineered this whole thing from the get go, including the publicity…

Bottom line it’s crises, crises, crises – all day long – one after the other…

The intent is to distract and deceive, and boy oh boy is it ever working. Plans are on the table for an Iranian military stand off of some sort. The bottom line is that the run up to this thing includes propagating the false notion that we are losing…

Sun Tzu: All war is based on deception.

Remember, O-What’s-His-Name is a tool for the status quo. The MSM paints him either as a radical or as a progressive. He’s none of that. That’s just the placebo that is fed to the public.
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 10:05 am
  I am always suspect of these items being spiked. Crisis and more crisis = distraction and more deception. You are so right. IMHO, nothing good will come of this, nothing. It is a distraction. Julian is also a tool whether he knows it or not.
  Pundita said it best, “So you see the difficulties with hitting just the right note for tonight’s newscasts. Like trying to play 3-D chess in the middle of a six-lane highway at rush hour.”
  Well, I cannot say that nothing good will come of this because this will give Bam something to have to spin.
2. Buttered Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 12:27 pm
  Uncle, I already believe it is nothing but a distraction to try and bury the disastrous news about JOURNALIST which Obama himself belonged to.
Buttered Says:

July 26, 2010 at 12:25 pm
So what are these convenient “leaks” which the papers had had for weeks and weeks (two months by my estimate) being used to distract us from now?
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 1:32 pm
  We’ll soon know, but expect more as the 2010 elections get closer.
Mt.Laurel Says:

July 26, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Its all very odd. And very wrong.Someone had to set the leaks up for reveal and set the timing – so what is coming down the pike that they really want to hide and this will keep people buzzing and off guard.

That someone also has to have very interesting connections. They all need to be in prison because I think this crosses the line into treason. This in not about free speech its about not caring who gets killed because someone has to prove they are “all powerful” . They are playing a dangerous game that reduces people to nothing more than expendable pawns.
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 1:33 pm
  This is no different to me than the work of the cartels. Expendable collateral damage is unimportant to those that deem it so. We are sitting ducks.
  1. imustprotest Says:
    
    July 26, 2010 at 1:48 pm
    I agree. This is “the ends justifies the means” on steroids. Don’t get me wrong, I want us OUT of Afghanistan and Iraq, I just don’t think leaking government/military documents and putting unknown people in danger is the way to do it.
    1. NomNomNom Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 2:00 pm
      I don’t wish people put in danger either: show me where in the 92,000 documents any of the information does.
imustprotest Says:

July 26, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Show me where in the 92,000 documents? Sure. I’ll just read all 92K docs and get back to you. Get real. Whatta come back. I imagine Karl Rove and Bob Novak made the same argument when they outed Valerie Plame….PROVE we endangered anyone!!! Come on now, I dare you….I double dog dare you!
1. NomNomNom Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 2:37 pm
  hysterical you use Plame as an example when her husband was just such a whistleblower and it was in retaliation for this that the government outed her.
  you have made a claim, but not substantiated it. when anyone can show a real injury to US security from the leaks I’ll withdraw my support for the leaks.
  waiting…
  1. imustprotest Says:
    
    July 26, 2010 at 2:49 pm
    Look, anytime you publish or leak covert information, the people involved in the covert actions lives are in danger. You’re exposing agents and their contacts and their contacts contacts. That was the danger in the outing of Plame as well.
    1. NomNomNom Says:
      
      July 26, 2010 at 3:28 pm
      I haven’t seen anything mentioned in these reports I didn’t already know, much less covert information. also, these documents are referred to as classified, not “covert”: information that is classified is information that has restricted access: a great deal of information is classified that is of no import whatsoever; some information is classified merely to cover up wrongdoing. the only noteworthy fact that can be drawn from the release of classified documents (unless one has read them and can cite examples) is that the release of them is illegal, not that it poses any sort of threat to americans.
      Frankly, jmo, americans are a lot more threatened by being fed a constant diet of brainwashing and bullshit by their dear oligarchs who want them to play the role of cannonfodder in procuring for them their wealth.
      
      re the documents, so far I see a lot of this:
      http://chris-floyd.com/articles/1-latest-news/1997-leaky-vessels-wikileaks-qrevelationsq-will-comfort-warmongers-confirm-conventional-wisdom.html
      
      if I see anything that confirms your assertion, I will post it. so far, not.
mcnorman Says:

July 26, 2010 at 2:28 pm
The danger is that time will allow the whole shibang to explode just like with Valerie. It’s wrong. There are too many lives at stake with this many documents released. Much of the ground items are based on hearsay. Not good. There is always truth in there somewhere, but where is the question?
1. imustprotest Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 2:38 pm
  Yes, and things will be cherry picked for who’s ever agenda wants to use it. A nightmare.
Uncle Baruch Says:

July 26, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Btw, while the so-called leaks are hitting the presses, Michelle Antoinette and her daughter and “friends” will be vacationing in Spain – 30 rooms at a hotel for them…

But quick – look over there … there’s Shirley Sherrod (and her husband). And over there – quick – look at THAT! There’s the leaks story…

This administration is one giant rip off of magnanimous proportions. It is a farce.
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 26, 2010 at 3:16 pm
  Yes, and we are all stuck in the middle with no respite from Barack’s hell.
NomNomNom Says:

July 27, 2010 at 6:13 am
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38417666/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia
Pentagon says so far no security breaches from leaks

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/26/afghanistan-war-logs-us-marines
marines omit killing civilians in reports

http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/Judge_Rules_CIA_Can_Withhold_Info_about_Illegal_Methods_100726
CIA allowed to keep info classified that shows they have committed illegal offenses: in other words government makes CIA immune from prosecution unless info is released via whistleblowers
NomNomNom Says:

July 28, 2010 at 3:15 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/28/israel-link-sheikh-uae-coup
whoops, wonder who let this out??
NomNomNom Says:

July 29, 2010 at 10:43 am
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0728/financial-reform-exempts-sec-info-requests/
SEC to be exempt from FOIA: in other words, the only way to know about or prosecute the SEC for misconduct would be through information obtained by whistleblowers
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  July 29, 2010 at 6:57 pm
  Isn’t this great Nom. When will find out about what they are doing?
  1. NomNomNom Says:
    
    July 30, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    probably abut the time Apophis slams into DC
    
    http://returngood.com/2010/07/29/busting-white-house-spin-on-wikileaks-no-leak-required/
    and this is my view in a nutshell, said much better than I did above:
    
    “President Obama managed to show just how nimble and how disingenuous an administration can be in his response to the WikiLeaks fiasco:
    
    Obama, speaking from the Rose Garden after a meeting with congressional leaders to discuss funding for the war and other issues, deplored the leak, saying he was concerned the information from the battleground “could potentially jeopardise individuals or operations”.
    
    …
    
    The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, said he was appalled by the leaks, telling reporters “there is a real potential threat there to put American lives at risk.”
    
    Now, it may or may not be true that this leak put people in Afghanistan at risk, but I find that to be a very interesting point for this president to be making, considering that the policy and execution of his policy absolutely jeopardizes individuals in Afghanistan and around the world. After all, if you put Julian Assange and President Obama together in a room, only one person in that room is ordering heavily armed people into a hostile war zone filled with civilians. And only one of them is executing a policy that increases the likelihood of a suicide bombing campaign directed at the United States and its citizens and that kills thousands of civilians each year.
    
    This is a tried-and-true warmonger move: according to this canard, it’s those that oppose the war policy or that take action to show the conflict between societal values and actual policies that endanger everyone, not the brutal, costly policy. I would say I was a bit shocked, but this is the same president that stood up during his Nobel Peace Prize lecture and opined about the necessity of war when he feels it’s justified. The President of the United States has tripled the number of troops in Afghanistan, thus putting them in harm’s way for a policy that doesn’t make us safer and that causes enormous hardship for those caught in the crossfire. Those who support this policy but are attacking WikiLeaks for releasing this data need to take a good, hard look in the mirror before they jump on Julian Assange for “endangering” anyone.”
    
    …
NomNomNom Says:

July 31, 2010 at 11:06 am
FBI still reading your emails
http://people.howstuffworks.com/fbi-surveillance.htm
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  August 1, 2010 at 7:42 am
  Shoot, they are probably furious that they must read such boring stuff.
NomNomNom Says:

August 2, 2010 at 10:06 am
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m68469&hd=&size=1&l=e
there was a time when one needed a warrant for this sort of thing, and then one was read one’s miranda rights:
http://crimewatch.gaeatimes.com/2010/08/02/supreme-court-trims-miranda-warning-rights-death-by-a-thousand-cuts-says-defense-attorney-41758/
1. mcnorman Says:
  
  August 2, 2010 at 12:53 pm
  Looks like tattoo parlors are going to get a lot of business.